PTSC meeting
From PTAGISWiki
Draft Minutes of 2006 PTSC Meeting
Before Lunch
Preliminaries
- Introductions
- Bathroom location
FPAC Meeting and PTSC Charter (8am)
The existing charter does not appear to be valid anymore.
Carter: The charter has a termination clause but it has not been invoked by CBFWA.
Sandy: Does FPAC want to dissolve the PTSC?
Charlie: No. We have a chance to make suggestions to FPAC. CBFWA is probably not aware of the charter or the termination clause.
Doug: Need changes to charter done by Friday.
Charlie: Could we be more effective under a different organization?
Doug: We should probably be in a more regional forum to get more information. But it has to begin with CBFWA declaring the current charter void. Need to have the Corps involved so we don't get blindsided.
Charlie: If we go with a regional forum, would that be more work for the Chair and the committee? Would that mean more meetings?
Ed: I don't think so. The current structure would simply move and a few members would be added.
Sandy: There would be a lot of sub-workgroups. Meet once every 2 months.
Charlie: First step is to provide feedback to Dave Wills. Get an update in the next PTAGIS newsletter of what the future looks like.
Ed: Do we need to flesh out what we do now, or what we do in the future?
Carter: What does the committee do? It would be useful to walk through the charter and establish what the important functions are.
- technical guidance
- feedback to the director
- coordination and training
- spec doc
Should this group be doing the separation by code? We've asked FPAC.
Upgrades to devices and mainstem facilities should be overseen by PTSC.
PTAGIS staff should not be making policy decisions.
Carter's suggested PTSC functions
- provide direction for PTAGIS
- oversight (is performance adequate?)
- technical knowledge
- coordination
Don's activities are directly related to the Corp's activities. We get blindsided there regularly.
Don: Has the Corp been invited to be a member of PTSC?
Doug: They are funders. If our charter is null, we become a subgroup of FPAC. And PSMFC loses their vote because they are not part of CBFWA. BPA is not a member of CBFWA.
Don: The problem of communication with the Corp is getting worse as our systems get bigger.
Charlie: There is a review meeting that could be helpful to attend to get info from the Corp: Partnership meeting.
Sandy: It used to be that all projects had to communicate with FPAC. Maybe there needs to be an approval loop so we can know all the projects that could impact us.
Don: The Corp started using a water level probe that messed up our equipment. We could tell them the problem at a high level but then again at the lower levels.
Doug: There is a planning meeting at beginning of the season. In the last couple years the AFIP proposals have been on the web site. The pre-work meetings usually occur in the spring, and that's too late. But the preliminary proposal stage would be good. Usually at the end of August. SRWG?
Ed: Moving to another regional group will not solve the communication problems.
Dave: I agree. A broader participation might help though.
Ed: Does anybody know how SCT works?
Sandy: It meets in Portland.
Charlie: If you draw those people in, it would reduce coordination problems.
Carter: The communication problem with the Corps needs to be addressed at the policy level because the problem is systemic.
Charlie: Bureau of Rec is a member of SCT.
Dave: we are just starting to see activity by BR concerning diversion screens in Umatilla. The Forest Service is involved in Bull trout. They've been tagging fish but not submitting data. Is SCT comprehensive enough?
Doug: It is as big as we can get. BPA projects don't go through SCT. But at least they sit on the committee.
Dave: FPAC requested that all seperation by code requests go through them. Dave Wills has originally made this request and Russ has not changed that.
Carter: John also has coordination issues with the Corps.
Carter: Another type of oversight and direction would be management of things like the G2 reader. New Digital Angel products.
Dave: some members are not represented here today
Charlie: We'll send them.
Doug: We're not dissolving the committee. We're changing the charter.
Ed: If the PTSC goes to SCT, the USGS isn't a member there.
What is SCT? We don't know. They make a lot of funding decisions. It isn't just dams.
Active Passive Development Update (9:30am)
Earl asked Sandy to present.
The advancements with the corner collector shows that it may be possible to build a 50 by 6 foot antenna with just passive technology.
This is a future development.
BPA has asked us to find a way to do the spillways. The SST tag might make it work.
The SST is a little lighter than the ST. And it reads better than SGL or ST. And it reads more consistently because it went back to the ferrite core.
It still fits in the barrel of a 12 gauge needle.
Probably 3 years away.
First, the corner collection has to be in and proven.
DA feels that the active passive tag doesn't gain much. By sticking with passive, the timeline will be much shorter.
Tag collision will be a problem with an antenna that large.
Ed: one of the ultimate goals will be to have the tag be the same weight and size as the SST? We don't want to get another SGL tag that is significantly heavier.
Sandy: there will still be the choice of a heavy or light tag.
Pros and Cons of Half vs Full Duplex PIT Tag Detection (10am)
Chris Peery:
Monitoring lamprey in the dams. Need to expand coverage. The telemetry work is effective but costly.
Chose to go with half-duplex to avoid collision with full-duplex. A lamprey could sit on a detector and block all other detections.
What interference is there? The vendors say none, but there is some measurable interference.
Dave: who expressed concern about conflict?
Chris: Earl and Sandy.
Sandy: can you present points about whether the data should or could be submitted to PTAGIS database?
Chris: yes.
2006 Lamprey PIT antenna configuration BON, TD, JD, McNary, Ice harbor
Lamprey mostly move at night, salmon mostly at day.
To reduce the impact on salmon monitors, the half-duplex can operate just at night.
Sandy: if you turn off the antennas, do they stop interfering with full-duplex?
Chris: yes
Don: how long will these be in place?
Chris: 3 to 5 years.
Don: operating just at night still will cause lots of TASS alarms We would prefer to eliminate the noise rather than just try to operate at night.
Carter: how many lamprey are being tagged?
Chris: 2000
Carter: 2000 at each dam?
Chris: No, 2000 at BON Adding another trap at MCN, maybe 200. Only tagging at BON and MCN. Tagging at BON end of June. Tagging at MCN end of July. Off the top of my head.
Don: do you have any electrical engineers?
Chris: just Bill Daigle. They might consider hiring a tech. No one currently on staff.
Don: a shielded single unit was initially demonstrated, but then it was installed as a multiplex system that caused lots of noise.
Ed: can you give money and time estimate of the cost of dealing with half-duplex?
Don: 300-400 hours for Darren, 2 dozen road trips for false alarms.
Ed: I've got a real problem with the interference. Go back to the Corps and get funding for Carter's group to deal with the half-duplex system.
Chris: we didn't think there would be interference.
Sandy: NOAA is interested in getting the lamprey data. FDX won't let you monitor entrance and exit. HDX will let you get entrance and exit.
Chris: if we can't fix noise we will have to shut them down
Sandy: that's what we want to hear.
Dave: BON Washington shore location?
Sandy: how high above the water will you be?
Chris: the design has OK'd by the Corps.
Dave: Bradford Island exit, on the makeup water?
Chris: 3 antennas in the makeup water channel. Plan to install on shielded right at the exit.
Sandy: Where will the equipment be?
Chris: I don't know, Bill is at Ice Harbor.
Dave: You know that we are installing FDX? How far will yours be from ours?
Chris: 3 weirs, I think.
Ed: how many problems will it take to shut down the HDX?
Chris: we don't have the criteria, but if there is 'detectable effect' according to PSMFC then we will shut them down.
Chris: we'll be monitoring around the middle of June 1 to August 31 at BON. At MCN it will be a bit later, but also according to temperature. Stop tagging if the river temp gets to 70, but leave the antennas on until end of Sept.
Sandy: there may be some effect since noise comes through the AC or the ground.
Carter: what is the testing schedule?
Chris: on-going based on Don's schedule. Relying on Don's testing. Any line of sight causes noise. Making the systems perpendicular reduces noise. Concrete between antennas reduces noise.
Carter: What is the maintenance frequency while they are in operation?
Chris: hopefully very little after they are tuned. We left them alone except when we had to shut them down. The initial tinkering was the installation.
Sandy: are you changing how you config the readers?
Chris: we didn't know we could change that.
Sandy: the default is to look for a tag 5 times per second.
Chris: I know it changes if you use a multiplexer.
Sandy: it would reduce conflict if you could reduce the pulses per second
Carter: has there been any discussion of marking some with full duplex to get data about probability of collision?
Chris: we've been opeating a flume at BON to test behavior and potential interference. Does it matter where the tag is in the fish? The fish will swim into the orafice until they can't make more headway then they will attach. Then they rest and make incremental headway. Most fish will stop and attach to the floor.
Sandy: it won't matter where the tag is in the animal
Charlie: is it feasible to tag with both HDX and FDX?
Sandy: we have asked them not to tag with FDX.
Dave: give your locations at the entrances and exits could you use the existing locations to satisfy your research objectives.
Chris: no, we need the exits. We want to identify behavior.
Dave: you need some alternate tagging technology.
Don: do the lamprey attach immediately? We could install an FDX flat plate antenna.
Chris: we're trying to understand that behavior.
Ed: the average time in the antenna is about 4 minutes. what's the max?
Chris: about 10 to 15 minutes
Sandy: we don't know what they do at the vertical slots
Chris: it is driven by the velocity which is about the same as an orafice. To continue the discussion, the Dalles dam.
It appears in testing that there is no interference with the plastic antennas, non-metal washers, aluminum shielding.
Don: did they hit any rebar when they attached?
Chris: they don't know
Sandy: could you avoid the multiplexer by having two synced readers?
Chris: no, they interfere with each other.
Dave: MCN middle channel oregon shore were installed last year? was there interference?
Chris: no
Don: no
Dave: washington shore, new shielded antenna. Will we test for compatibility?
Chris: as soon as the FDX is up. Our HDX is around the corner so it should be separated enough. It will be wired for power. We don't know if it is isolated power.
Don: the FDX power is isolated there.
Chris: we can run on batteries there
Sandy: how are they grounded?
Don: they aren't grounded
Chris: Bill knows
Sandy: are the shields grounded?
Chris: no
Sandy: have you talked to Warren Leach to talk about grounding?
Chris: we talk to him often, he wants to know what we're finding. We avoid grounding to keep from causing interference.
Don: it depends if you ground the shield or not on our systems.
Chris: last slide is Ice Harbor
Ed: Don, you are the expert, can you go through a list of problems with this?
Don: We got notification a week before the HDX went live and had to test immediately. Any change involves retesting the complete system.
Sandy: We've learned a lot since last year. It would make us feel better if we knew that the OM schedule was regular and you let us know exactly what changes were going to happen. There is a maintenance log that PSMFC keeps where every change is documented.
Chris: it is no problem to alert people.
Sandy: the shielded antennas should really reduce the impact
Sandy: you may need to hire an electronics tech
Carter: 3 items to propose:
- prior to turning on for the season, communicate with Don
- use the event log notification used by Don when techs perform maintenance
- develop criteria for turning off the HDX when there is interference
Chris: the Corps understands that the salmon is priority so they give Chris flexibility for developing the criteria for shutting down. But the Corps has to agree to the plan.
Dave: are you aware of any other studies that are planning to piggy back on your detection system?
Chris: did a proposal to BPA to do in-stream work. That will piggyback on the tagged fish, but not the antennas.
Ed: what is the tag format?
16 digit code
Sandy: at each site you get a tag code and timestamp
Carter: We need to add a character to our tag id field.
Carter: We need to get estimates for the cost to store the longer codes.
John: Can we see a sample tag code? There's no conversion to ISO code?
Sandy: no
Carter: you could convert to hexadecimal
John: if they tell me what a tag code looks like, then I can relax the validation codes to allow them through. Doug has to relax the validation rules on the server loaders.
Half and Full Duplex PIT Tag Activities at the BON Corner Collector
Pulling out of Bradford Island and putting into Cascades Island.
They want to put in an HDX antenna in Cascades Island ladder. There is a salmon barrier, but lamprey do get in. The antenna will go where the old counting window is.
Turning it on in May to test noise levels.
Sandy: shielded antenna?
Doug: don't know
Doug: it looks like there will be no effect
Don: PSMFC power is isolated
Dave: we need to thank Darren for his initiative in bringing this up. We only recently found out.
Doug: don't know if it is above water or if the water will be lowered.
Charlie: Mary works for who?
Sandy: Corps.
Construction Updates for New Detection Sites (noon)
Slide presentation of top 7 main stem projects.
- Adult fallback monitor at GRJ
- Adult fallback monitor at GOJ
- Adult fallback monitor at LMJ
- Counting window antenna installation at MC2
- Slot antenna at BO1
- Full flow monitor at B2J
- B2 Corner collector antenna
BON Corner Collector Update
Thanksgiving week found a fabricator (Polycycle) in Pittsburgh.
The earliest delivery date is Feb 15. The Corps says our contractor wants it Feb 1st. Now it is a moot point because of Corps delays.
Until the system is installed, no testing can happen. The shield needs to be installed to do any useful testing. BPA has decided to delay full efficiency testing until 2007.
The fish testing this year will be to help DA an idea of how the fish behave.
Strictly pit tags for testing. Radio tags interfere.
There will be drone testing done at different depths.
The high rains caused construction delays.
The bottom shield and floor are in. The outside wall is being poured this week. The non-ferrous cement is very white, but good to work with.
Spills may start at BON April 10. Contractor should be done by April 10. We asked for testing, but...
It looks hopeful, but there are still untested variables.
Same plastic as other antennas in use.
Feb 10 the antenna should arrive. They will connect the two halves, DA will wrap the coils. The Corps contractor will place the antenna.
March 17 is the date to place the antenna.
John: when will we collect data on it?
Sandy: by middle of April it will become an official site.
Don: in a pinch we could use standard minimon.
John: I don't think it will work because of the xml output. We're hoping to use a beta of M4 to collect data. Otherwise, we would have to update minimon to accept the new format with the serial input.
Carter: when will we get new firmware for that device?
nobody knows.
Site name will be BCC.
Digital Angel Update (1pm)
Roger:
Contact info
How can we communicate better? Our best resource will probably be the DA ftp site. More face to face meetings (every 5 or 6 weeks).
ftp://ftp.digitalangelcorp.com
user: dauser
pass: system02
CPU chips constructed from March to April 2005 are exhibiting problems booting. The symptom is that on power up, the chip fails to see memory and stops the boot and begins booting every 2-3 seconds. Devices with this problem need to be sent back to DA.
Testing has been changed to include power cycle.
Cold seems to make the failure more predictable.
On the muxes, users can make the change.
There will be a yellow dot on the units that have had this corrected.
They think that there are 71 units affected to be replaced.
A test for this condition is to put it in a freezer for 10 minutes and then power on. If it comes up, you don't have this problem.
After Lunch
New PIT Tag (ST, SGL & SST) Update (1:45pm)
Sandy:
The SST in a 4x4 antenna read about 20% better consistently.
Same glass and length and diameter as the ST.
The ST weigh .1067 SST weigh .1020?
The SGLs had some dead tags.
The most consistent tags are the ones that activate at higher frequency.
Biomark Update (2pm)
Anthony:
Rocky Reach
- goes on-line within a month and a half
- we need information about the site: coil ids, maps
- computer room on site
- ladders are watered up again
Willamette Falls Fishway
- lots of lamprey
Tucannon River
- 2 transceivers and a passthrough antenna
- total of 5 antennas
- collected data and tested
- Steve will give a presentation at Idaho AFS
- 1001 multiplexer is running 3.5 by 18 antenna
Small Streams Update (2:30pm)
Ian:
Rattlesnake creek currently offline because of all the water. May or may not be reconstructed.
Windriver watershed. Been tagging 3-4K per year. Since 1999. That project will probably continue. Cheeseblocks in stream. BPA funded.
Methow river basin Bureau of Rec funded. 2 multiplex, 8 cheeseblocks. Restoration through removal of barriers, recolonization. Funding through 2008.
New project in upper Cedar river watershed, out of columbia basin. Funded through Seattle public utilities.
PTAGIS Status and Plans (3pm)
Carter:
- Client, server and web systems
- Separation by code support
Multimon to be replaced next year
- Field systems operation and maintenance
Doug wants to have a change to the raw file to enable him to see how long a gate is open for an SbyC event. This was requested earlier, but we don't know if it was implemented. Don will follow up.
- Coordination
M4 (Minimon, Multimon and SbyC) Development Status (3:30pm)
John:
- objectives and validation
- meet or exceed multimon performance
- how performance is measured
- M4 component diagram
- Marathon
- milestones
Election/Selection of New Chair and Co-Chair
Ed was chosen
PTAGIS Web and Query System (4:15pm)
Dave:
- Support > Forums > PTSC Committee > Members
- need to update chair
- need to add boxes for other vacant seats besides USFW
Doug: will the telnet interface go away? Dave: no, but it won't be updated
- need to follow up with Doug about what difficulty he has getting data from web interface
- need to make sure there is only one Add Document in sitescape interface.
Sandy: it is a drag to go through the flash interface. We need to be able to bookmark individual functions.
- need to add text to indicate that code requests need to be validated by the steering committee
- Charlie hasn't been able to get Firefox to log in. It locked up.
- is it required to attach a map of the site when requesting a new validation code
- add a link to google maps from the site map
Concluding Remarks
Roger has an update. Zeke says 1 HDX and 1FDX side-by-side shouldn't interfere. The HDX will dampen the FDX just like a piece of metal would. The ftp site will be wiped tomorrow and a new one will be published soon.
